Does Dolby allow movie theaters to install Dolby Atmos without overhead speakers?

[Jonathan Smiles]

A PLF screen install without overhead ceiling speakers is claiming to be Dolby Atmos, it does sound good with excellent side/rear audio placement but nothing overhead on Atmos movies, no Atmos trailer is played and there is no Atmos marketing.

Claim is by the movie theater chain's customer service, who standby the claim when asked to clarify.

[Jim Cassedy]

They can install anything they want, but Dolby has a pretty comprehensive & strict "Atmos Commissioning" process which
must be followed & filed before they will issue an ATMOS license. I can't imagine that they would approve a commercial
installation that did not have ceiling speakers. Ceiling speakers (or "Top Surrounds" as Dolby calls them) are included in
Dolby's "Atmos Minimum Spec-V3" documentation, so I'd find it very unlikely that a venue without them would be able to:
1) Get an ATMOS license; or: 2) Get ATMOS KDM's issued (since Dolby supplies a list of "approved" ATMOS installations
to content KDM providers)

That's my understanding of things, but perhaps somebody who actually does installs can fill you in further.

> Is it possible the ceiling speakers are there, but "Invisible" ? I've worked in a few high-end screening rooms where
the ceiling & side surrounds are completely hidden behind acoustically transparent wall & ceiling panels.

But the fact that, according to your post, they play no ATMOS trailer & do no ATMOS promotion, furter leads me to believe
that they're not actually ATMOS equipped, no matter what they say.

[Bobby Henderson]

It's bad enough commercial movie theaters can do all sorts of corner cutting with an Atmos installation which customers cannot see, such as the number of amplifiers in the booth rack. But if I walked into a premium priced auditorium that was supposed to be equipped with Atmos and saw no ceiling surround speakers I would immediately exit the room, demand a refund for that ticket and then never visit that theater location ever again. Any Atmos configuration without ceiling surround speakers is bullshit.

[Jonathan Smiles]

> Is it possible the ceiling speakers are there, but "Invisible" ? I've worked in a few high-end screening rooms where
the ceiling & side surrounds are completely hidden behind acoustically transparent wall & ceiling panels.

Normal ceiling tiles and the PLF rooms that advertise Atmos from the same chain using the same PLF branding have very obvious ceiling speakers.

[Jonathan Smiles]

Atmos and saw no ceiling surround speakers I would immediately exit the room, demand a refund for that ticket and then never visit that theater location ever again. Any Atmos configuration without ceiling surround speakers is bullshit.

Part of problem is this PLF screen is no longer premium priced as the chain is in a price war with another recently opened multiplex, standard ticket prices are GBP 4.99 (USD 5.37 exc tax). The new plex dropped standard tickets to GBP 4.50 (USD 4.84 exc tax) last week. The new plex is not helped by having no free parking and IMHO also has bad laser projection.

The new plex's IMAX is dual 2K Xenon projecting 1.9 on a 1.43 screen with 12 channel sound, tickets were reduced to GBP 9.95 (USD 10.71 exc tax).

[Bobby Henderson]

I suppose if customers weren't paying anything extra to see a movie in a room partially equipped with Atmos they might have a little less recourse when requesting a refund. Still, if I knew a theater had installed Atmos without ceiling surrounds I would avoid the theater anyway. If they're going to install Atmos and advertise the capability they need to install a satisfactory Atmos system or just go with a conventional 7.1 system instead.

Regarding hidden speakers, I personally haven't visited any that had cabinets completely hidden. I've seen surround speakers built into decorative columns that also contained fancy sconce lights. Warren Theaters did that in some of its auditoriums.

I think it would be a bad idea to hide ceiling surround speakers in an Atmos setup unless the auditorium was a smaller screening room setup. Considering the high ceilings of many stadium seated theaters the top surround cabinets in Atmos rooms need to be appropriately powerful. Otherwise you're just not going to hear them if you're sitting in a mid or low level area of the room. Surround sub-bass cabinets is another issue. I'm not sure how someone would hide those things. I usually see them on the ceilings in Dolby Cinema houses. Harkins' Cine Capri rooms usually have them positioned in the rear corners above the exit/entry hallways.

The new plex's IMAX is dual 2K Xenon projecting 1.9 on a 1.43 screen with 12 channel sound, tickets were reduced to GBP 9.95 (USD 10.71 exc tax).

I thought the 12 channel sound system was exclusive to IMAX with Laser auditoriums. Given what it costs to see a movie in any IMAX house, regardless if it's 2K Xenon, 4K Laser or 15/70mm, I think all of those IMAX-branded houses should be equipped with the 12 channel sound system. Here in Lawton we have a larger than usual "Lie-MAX" theater (over 550 seats). The two big surround speakers in the upper rear corners of the room aren't nearly enough to provide proper surround coverage.

[Brad Miller]

They probably bought a CP950 and THINK they have Atmos sound.

[Jonathan Smiles]

I thought the 12 channel sound system was exclusive to IMAX with Laser auditoriums....The two big surround speakers in the upper rear corners of the room aren't nearly enough to provide proper surround coverage.

Appears to have been designed for dual laser, but only dual Xenon installed, probably budget cuts.
Non-technical patrons are noticing as the screen is 5th largest IMAX in the UK, so the huge image really lacks resolution compared to the smaller screened conventional 4K screens as well as 1.9 not filling the 1.43 screen, which be more apparent with Bond.

The rear surrounds speakers really don't have the impact of real IMAX rear arrays, but local staff are turning down the sound to being far too low, which doesn't help.
IMAX CQO has been informed about the low volume.

[Bobby Henderson]

They probably bought a CP950 and THINK they have Atmos sound.

I think you're probably right. The CP950 has the potential capability of providing Atmos, but IIRC anyone buying a CP950 has buy a one or more expansion cards for the processor. And that's in addition to the other gear (and services from Dolby) required to actually install Atmos.

The rear surrounds speakers really don't have the impact of real IMAX rear arrays, but local staff are turning down the sound to being far too low, which doesn't help.
IMAX CQO has been informed about the low volume.

Our local IMAX-branded theater is definitely operating a few decibels lower than when it first opened a few years ago. Obviously certain customers complained about the volume levels, so the fader was turned down some. All of the standard priced screens in the multiplex have volume levels set even lower. I think there are two motives for that: one is handling customer complaints but the other motive is running things at low levels as a means of preventing any speaker drivers from getting damaged or worn out. It's a corner cutting thing.

The syndrome is bad enough now that I find it rare to watch a movie in any standard priced auditorium and hear audio that has any real dynamics to it. The kind of audio being played in theaters today is technically superior to the lossy compressed digital audio common to theaters 20 years ago. But the sound mixes and theatrical presentations back then were more dynamic, even bombastic. Sound mixes these days seem to be tuned for the tiny speakers in TV sets and sound bars now.

[Jonathan Smiles]

All of the standard priced screens in the multiplex have volume levels set even lower. I think there are two motives for that: one is handling customer complaints but the other motive is running things at low levels as a means of preventing any speaker drivers from getting damaged or worn out. It's a corner cutting thing.

....... Sound mixes these days seem to be tuned for the tiny speakers in TV sets and sound bars now.

The IMAX had previously blown some tweeters and local staff said they had sound level complaints especially when theater was near empty.

Disney's near field home theater mixes on UHD Bluray are very tame compared to theatrical.

Dolby has now confirmed which screens are Dolby Atmos and the screen without the top surrounds is not on the list.

[Leo Enticknap]

As part of the Atmos commissioning process, I have to take photos of the auditorium, showing the side, rear, and top speakers. These photos, together with a settings backup from the CP850, 950, or IMS3000 (so that they can see the EQ curves applied to each channel), log files, evidence that encrypted Atmos CPLs are playing OK, and the DAD file, have to be sent to Dolby on completion of the work, after which they will go through it, and, if everything checks out, add that room to the list of official Atmos venues. I believe that the mainstream distributors, at least, will not issue KDMs for Atmos DCPs to play in a room that is not on that list.

So, as Jim notes, if there are no top surrounds at all, I can't see how that room would ever be Atmos-approved. That doesn't mean that marketing people for the theater chain won't try to claim that it is, however.

[Jonathan Smiles]

The chain's customer services have backtracked on Atmos and told me it's 6.1, which is also wrong as further digging found an old 2012 press release saying that Dolby 7.1 was fitted as part of the PLF branding upgrade. I pointed out the 7.1 press release and the chain's website was updated in the last hour with the correct info as Dolby 7.1 from Dolby 6.1.

[Harold Hallikainen]

[QUOTE=Leo Enticknap;n1224]As part of the Atmos commissioning process, I have to take photos of the auditorium, showing the side, rear, and top speakers. These photos, together with a settings backup from the CP850, 950, or IMS3000 (so that they can see the EQ curves applied to each channel), log files, evidence that encrypted Atmos CPLs are playing OK, and the DAD file, have to be sent to Dolby on completion of the work, after which they will go through it, and, if everything checks out, add that room to the list of official Atmos venues. I believe that the mainstream distributors, at least, will not issue KDMs for Atmos DCPs to play in a room that is not on that list.

Since ATMOS is a subset of SMPTE ST 2098-2 and other companies can now play it (including the QSC CMS-5000, Barco APX, and others), are KDMs indeed still restricted to those auditoriums with Dolby equipment?

Harold
On vacation in San Francisco!

[Steve Guttag]

I'm sure that would be on a studio-by-studio basis but those not using Dolby equipment would be prohibited from calling it ATMOS as that is Dolby's name. Back in the days of Dolby Stereo, the knock-off brands like Eprad (Starscope), Kintek, Ultra-Stereo and Smart could only advertise "Stereo." Some tried to tread the line further by using genuine Dolby noise reduction modules (EPRAD, Christie) and would confuse the issue further with Dolby NR and Stereo but never the familiar Dolby Stereo name. Likewise, I doubt that the CMS5000 could use the Dolby ATMOS name without being approved by Dolby. As for the KDM to play immersive tracks, that would be up to the studio.

[Harold Hallikainen]

Thanks! I agree that the ATMOS name should not be used without permission. There was a discussion at ISDCF about using IAB in the naming convention instead of Atmos, but people thought that would be too confusing. So, theaters should be able to play a DCP marked Atmos without using Dolby Atmos equipment, and, as you state, subject to studio approval.